Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: US $463.00 used
Submitted 08/30/2004
at 01:53pm
by Jeff Smith
Features
:9
This amp I bought on ebay about a year ago when I wanted to expand my guitar playing and after being impressed the a friends tone with his Line 6 Vetta. I knew the Line 6 name because of their great modeling technology. It's a 212 combo. When I opened the box, the thing was huge, pretty heavy. I would recommend a case with casters for it. It will save you lots of knicks in the tolex and popped discs in your spine. Four programable channels, did not come with a footswitch. You can buy a footswitch aftermarket, (FB4) which has a cool feature that lets you tap in tempo for delay, tremolo, or rotary speaker effects. Also features silent recording out, direct out, headphone jack, Midi out, external speaker outs. Knobs out the wazoo, yet very user friendly.
Sound Quality
:9
I play an '96 Epiphone Les Paul Standard and a Squier Tele. I play rock in the genres of alternative/medlodic/emo/blues whatever. I play lots of modern worship, which features a very U2 influenced sound, so the Line 6 crazy effects work great. As said earlier, it is the best modeling amp out there and Line 6 knows what they are doing, Lots of the sounds come insanely close to the real things, namely the Fender Black Face and the Vox Ac-30. The amp also has cab modeling on it, so you can mix and match amps with diffrent style cabs, or match them up with the same manufacturers product being modeled. One draw back I have noticed, is that any high driven gain amp models get really muddy, and takes some knob tweaking to get them to cut. The clean sounds break up nicely at high volumes that somewhat emulate tube amps. I would not buy this amp if you are a gain freak. Line 6 made a high gain modeling amp that does a real good job with those kinda sounds, but this amp pretty much takes care of the blues/jazz/alternative rock sounds. It's also kind of bass heavy, so watch where you turn that knob, or you might fart out a speaker. The effects are really great, and they allow you to adjust them to your taste. I really like the delay, swell delay and the rotary speaker effects, all very adjustable. It has a selection of all their effects combined with delay, as well as them by themselves (ie, flanger, delay/flanger). I pretty much just use this amp for it's amp modeling and use a normal pedal board for effects, that way if I run another amp with the flextone, I won't have to sacrifice effects for diffrent tone. Again, the modeling is about as close as you can come to the real thing. If you are patient, and don't mind experimenting with turning knobs, you can really make this thing shine.
Reliability
:8
One time I was rehearsing with this amp on a tilt back amp stand and it fell over backwards right on its head. I was worried, but it wasn't harmed and kept on rehearsing like it never happened. Something else I would experience, after leaving the amp on for a while, my sounds would get all weak and mushy. I would turn it off and back on again, and it would be fine. it has only happend twice though throughout the year I have had it. No big deal. If you take good care of it, it will take good care of you.
Customer Support
:7
I have heard horror stories about trying to get Line 6 to fix a problem. Since these things are so digital and high tech, only Line 6 can work on them. The warrantly will go void if anyone other than a Line 6 certified place even OPENS the chasis. It took this guy about 2 months to get his Line 6 amp back after running around town trying to find places that Line 6 would let him take it to fix it. I personally have never had to deal with this. I get the impression that they might be cool people to deal with, because they write their manuals to be pretty funny and entertaining. I could be wrong though..
Overall Rating
:10
I've been playing for about 8 years now and this way the first "serious" amp I have bought. It is a great thing to have if you want versatility. It can make some pretty great sounds and tones if you spend some time with it. I have gotten many compliments on my sounds and have inspired some friends of mine to go out and get their own Line 6. Best modeling amp technology.
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: Euro (900)
Submitted 04/20/2004
at 02:03am
by Syl
Features
:10
You could write an entire book on this amp's features so let's keep it simple and just list some of them: Impressive array of modelled amps going from the usual suspects to some boutique jewels, easy to use interface, fx loop, 9 four preset soundbanks.
Sound Quality
:9
This amp was my lifesaver, maybe it's not the best for one who can afford the most reccomended amp for his style, but when i got it i was playing in bands who played totally different styles and being a student i couldn't afford a vox and a mesa and there wasn't an amp in the market that could do their job decently. So here comes this little guy here that gives you very good modelling of some of the best amps ever made. I was using the pod before so i was quite familiar with the interface of the flextone (which is basicaly the pod fitted with some speakers and an amp look) but it definitely eliminated some problems i was dealing with my pod/crate amp setup:
1) No ages spent trying to find a good equalization for the two.
2) No excessive hum and noise coming
3) No excessive distortion on clean sounds
4) Better interaction with other FX
The celestion speakers really bring the wonderful sounds out without ruining them eve when using baritone or seven string guitars where many amps fall short. I bought it along with the floorboard and that really cut down my pedalboard leaving only the whammy peda, a wah, a phaser and my filter pedal. For the floorboard i'll post another review so now i'll talk about the fx. The onboard fx are some of the best available out there (exluding the ones on the contemporary vetta head and the now available flextone 3 and vetta 2 series who are much more controllable), definitely a great addition when you like to use lots of them and prefer to avoid the problems that might come from using pedals on stage (stepping on the knobs, battery failures, random troubleshooting, feedback...). If you have some midi equipment you can edit those fx even better with the provided software or the much more user friendly new software available online. Any flaws? Well of course there are, on the fx side i was disappointed not to find a phaser fx since i loved the Phase 90 emulation line 6 did for the bass pod and for recording the fx don't sound so great so i recomend using stompboxes for that. Since this is a combo and a quite heavy one too i wish line 6 would have thought adding some wheels to it. As for the fx control, well they could have set some of the more important features as controllable without the use of midi software and i've noticed that the incompatibility with midi interfaces is far greater than promised. But still it's a wonderful piece of equipment, the clean setting are great and being all digital it never distorts unless you tell him to do so using the dedicated gain and simulated amp volume, but no matter how much you crank the main volume the sound remains crystal clear. As for the distortion very well done, you can get the wonderful distortion of amps such as a Mesa dual rectifire and a Soldano Slo without even needing to crank it up to 11! What's the advantage on that? You can spend all the time you want setting it up in your own house without risking to be arrested for excessive noise, since you get pretty much the same sound with the master volume set on 1 or on 10. I definitely recomend this one or the other versions of it to anyone wanting the closest sounds to the ones of the best amps ever made without spending a fortune or to someone who needs a versatile amp
Reliability
:10
No problems ever encountered and it survived several low budget tours.
Customer Support
:No Opinion
never tried it out
Overall Rating
:10
I've been playing it two years now and definitely i believe it will last for quite some time. If someone would steal it from me well i'd probably buy one of the newer flextones or the original vetta but i would stick to line 6 since this is the most satisfying amp i ever played. Maybe some could argue about the warmth of the sound on recordings but hey, you get so many sounds just from one amp and then live it sounds awesome. Plus you don't have to deal with tubes, the wonderful onboard fx surely make you travel lighter than most other guitarists. If it sounded also warm like a tube amp i doubt it would be quite affordable and that anyone would use a different amp.
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: N/A
Submitted 03/21/2004
at 09:27am
by GV
Features
:No Opinion
Lots of features...
Sound Quality
:5
I don't understand why people who can't stand it live think it may still be suitable for recording. It is not!
I tried to record with Flextone (as well as POD) - it sounds flat and annoying because no matter what the volume it is not there, the sound is dead.
Since then I have picked up a Twin Reverb and a Mesa/Boogies Studio Preamp. Yes, it takes time setting up those things but the tone! The sound is localized, live and breathing. What a difference!
So, contrary to what others say, I would keep Flextone for live playing since it is so easy to use and change tones on the fly but for recording it is a tone killer.
Reliability
:No Opinion
Customer Support
:No Opinion
Customer Support is great though. They sent me new OS chips free of charge immediately upon my first request.
Overall Rating
:No Opinion
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: #850
Submitted 03/04/2004
at 06:03am
by Anonymous
Features
:10
as detailed on other comments
Sound Quality
:9
Used with G&L S-500, strat style guitar with hotter pick-ups. Play covers from funk to heavy rock. Combination of guitar and amp give huge versatility. Best clean channels are Fender, Matchless, Vox and Dumble models. Best vintage distortions are Marshall (45 and plexi), best rock sound Marshall JCM800 and Soldano, best lead Soldano. It is important for all distorted models that the cab simulator is turned off as this increases volume, brightness, sustain and punch. I suspect a lot of the negative comments are due to the cab simulators, it is a revelation when you take them off. It takes several hours of tweaking at gig volume to get the best combination of sounds, but once saved suit most venues. Delay and reverb effects are good, Chorus and flange are only ok, but useable when tweaked. The wah-wah is useable but not a patch on a Cry-baby.
Reliability
:9
Gigged it for two years without back-up. Only problems experienced are with voltage drops at outdoor venues using generators, or running strings of lights on the same circuit. If the voltage drops the amp will cut out. However, a rare problem and not really trhe fault of the amp. Otherwise extremely reliable.
Customer Support
:No Opinion
Never had cause to contact them
Overall Rating
:9
Price paid includes floorboard which is essential for gigging. This amp is superb and always attracts good comments, but it has to be tweaked to get it right. I suspect a good valve amp would be marginally better at distorted sounds but you would lose the huge versatility.
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: US $450 used
Submitted 03/03/2004
at 10:39am
by Steve R
Features
:8
This is a 2000 Flextone IIXL...I mainly play rock, jazz and blues. I bought this based on a recommendation from someone who knows...A Gibson guitar rep. 50W...(2 x 12).. This thing has a lot of KPD (knob per dollar)...and a tremendous amount of flexibility, maybe that's why they call it a "Flextone"....Anywho.. This thing models about 12 different amps from a Blackface to a Soldano... it is pretty true to those tones. It has insane volume... deafening actually, play it at home... #3 is all I can handle... play it in a band... maybe #5/6... This is a modeling amp... it can be used as a monitor, comes with headphone jack.. really all the digital wiz bang stuff you'd need.
Sound Quality
:6
I presently use a American Telecaster with Duncans. As I said above, we play rock, funky jazz and some blues. The amp was absolutely wonderful when I got it. It was the all-in-one amp I needed. It has allowed me to explore sounds and settings, that would have taken me hours and numerous trips to Guitar Center to discover. Ergo, it helped me discover my style and sound. I started playing when I was 15...put the guitar down for 20 years and picked it back up and have been playing daily for 2 years. I love it... the Line 6 was essential in my re-entry to the guitar. I know play in a psuedo-band.. not sure we could entertain anyone, but we have fun and are recording...what I have discovered about the "digital" amp is there is NO WAY it can, nor does, compete with a tube amp, whether live or recording. Live... it is shallow and tone deaf...lacks depth and lays an egg on sustain. Recording... it is non-existent. I end up spending all my time futzing with the bass/treble and volume to get heard. When I am heard, it sounds forced and mushy, or forced and tinny, or just loud... Frankly, the tube amp punches right through the digital. That being said... if we were both playing digital.. fine great amp... awesome flexibility...but if your going to gig and compete with a tube amp... don't bother suiting up. The amp is great for personal use and messing around and very good and allowing you to discover "the tone" your looking for. It won't be "THE TONE" cause it is binary, but it will send you off looking for the tube amp which will give you that tone. Other than that...clean tones to total rectified distortion are available. Toss a VOX Wah-Wah on there and viola' you can sound pretty darn good.
Reliability
:7
I have had this 60 lbs beast for a year... it is tough and reliable. It get shoved into the back of my car weekly 2-3 times... No problems.
Customer Support
:4
Line 6 is wonderful when you call them... or I should say.. when you get them on the phone. This can be tough, but honestly... it has been a very positive experience. Their website support is stinko!!! In fact, if they spent half the time on website support that they do pushing those dumb little monkeys... they would be far better off.
Overall Rating
:5
Overall, I think this is a very good amp. You can get, nearly, any sound out of it you want. I will be using this as a back-up amp at home... and also keep it around because of the ability to use it as a monitor. A band buddy uses a Crate... and the Line 6 is a far more flexible amp. If you want digital this is the one your want (The Vetta would be the Mercedes)...
Otherwise, I am off to tube land!!!
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: 685 (GB Pounds)
Submitted 02/04/2004
at 08:32am
by Screaming Dave
Email: screaming<dot>dave at ntlworld<dot>com
Features
:9
Same Features as all the others. Lets face it, whatever you think of the sounds, it's jam packed with features!
The connectivity of it, via all the balanced and unbalanced lines out of the back, ground lift, recording/live modes, etc. is brilliant. Saves all that miking up!
Shame a footswitch and cover aren't included in the price. It's fairly impossible to use it with a band if you don't have a footswitch.
The user manual is brilliant, which makes a real change.
Sound Quality
:9
Ooh, this is becoming so controversial! I guess you either love it or hate it. Me, I love it. It sounds brilliant with the band, much better than the other guitarist's amp-plus-digital-effects-board rig. No, it doesn't sound exactly like all the valve amps its modelled on, but it does a bloody good impression and sounds brilliant.
I use it with a Fender US Standard Fat Strat mainly, but also with a Yamaha Pacifica 112, and it sounds great with either. I also have a setting with flat EQ and using the valve pre-amp setting for my electro-acoustic (Yamaha APX5A via a Zoom 504II) and that sounds good, too.
I think most people try to set it up at home at low volume, then try to use it with a band by just turning up the master volume. Well that won't work. You have to set it up at gig volume, just like you do with any amplifier. It's just that with so many channels it takes forever to tweak them all, and meanwhile the rest of the band are standing around taking the piss out of you!
In short it has a huge variety of sounds, most of them great, more gain than any sane person could want (that's another key to success with this thing: go easy on the gain) and a bunch of good digital effects as well. Some people whine about not being able to use a whole bunch of effects all at once, but I reckon that just sounds crap anyway, so I'm happy.
Reliability
:10
I've been using it for 18 months now and I've never had a problem with it. I've heard all sorts of horror stories about them misbehaving and switching channels and stuff of their own accord, but I think most of that is caused by using it somewhere where the mains voltage dips too far. Digital stuff hates that!
Customer Support
:10
I contacted the US Email helpline and they were really, REALLY slow to respond, but the UK service guys were really quick and helpful.
Overall Rating
:9
I love it. If it was stolen I'd probably get the Flextone III now, but only 'cos the Flextone II has been discontinued.
The only thing I hate is that it weighs 27kg, so it's a bugger to lift in and out of the car, and it could do with handles either side as well as the top handle.
I've been playing over 20 years and mainly play rock music. I also own a Fender US Fat Strat, Tokai 60s Strat copy, Yamaha Pacifica 112, Yamaha APX5A, Fender Telecoustic, Zoom 505II multi-FX, Zoom 504II Acoustic multi-FX.
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: 500
Submitted 01/05/2004
at 03:51pm
by el_extranjero
Email: la_tierra_extrana<at>yahoo dot com
Features
:10
2003 Line 6 Flextone II XL. 1 input, basically a Pod with an amp built around it.
I just sold the amp on eBay and bought a Peavey Classic 50 212 that I'm setting up with JJ's tubes and Weber speakers. I thought I'd contribute a few reviews as I've used others here a lot!!
I bought it because I didn't want to lug around an amp and stomp boxes. It has all the features I wanted and a lot of the settings sound very nice. I wish I could use several of the features simultaneously. You can only use the dial to get one effect or one effect with delay. I never could get the effect to turn all the way down when used with delay, so it didn't seem too adjustable.
I used the amp with the full floorboard but the whole bit is just too complex. I had to look up how to set the noise filter in the manual (hold the tap button and turn a knob).
I used it a lot in the house, some band practice, some auditions. PLENTY of power at 100W! I auditioned with several groups that were using half stacks and were a bit snobby at first, but were impressed with the volume and tone after playing with them.
Very versatile
Sound Quality
:7
I use a stock MIM Tele and Strat and play jazz, country, and some blues. The amp sounds great IF YOU WANT DISTORTION! If you're looking for just clean jazz or country tone it is difficult to get. You can get some outstanding tones if you want medium to 'insane' distortion, but that's not what I'm looking for.
When I bought it I took a pro musician friend along and he was able to repeat some tone 'clipping' on false harmonics. The same actions on tube amps in the store (Fender and Boogie) did not clip. At the time I wasn't discerning enough to tell; now I am.
Clean sounds good(ish) sometime(ish). I could make it sound outstanding doing fingerstyle jazz, but flatpicking on my Tele sounded very very harsh. Brittle is a term I've heard used. I never used it with humbuckers as I don't have any so I can't say, but the single coil flatpicking sounds don't seem to go well with this amp. I never could find any setting that didn't have some 'drive' in it that sounded good flatpicked on the single coils.
Reliability
:7
I started getting a lot of noise recently and couldn't get rid of it. I have a wnty but just didn't want to deal with it. I wouldn't gig without a backup of any kind of amp really.
Customer Support
:No Opinion
Overall Rating
:8
I would happily recommend line6 amps to someone who is ok with their limitations. I may even consider buying a small one (Spyder series) for a practice amp or for students that come over and don't want to lug an amp. However, if you want to play clean single coils jazz or country style this may not be your amp.
If you do the math though, a Pod cost $250, the low end Line6 amp (65Watt 112 Spyder) cost $299... Not bad for any 65W amp with all these effects!
I have to give a high overall rating of 8 because I think they're good products (I'd love to try the new Vetta II series), and I think I'd be sublimely happy with this amp if I was in a rock/blues band and even perhaps if I played humbuckers.
For jazz and country I decied to spend the bucks and get a tube amp. For effects I've simplified greatly and gone with the BOSS ME-50 which is basically a collection of stomp boxes with KNOBS AND NO MENUS without all the signal loss.
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: US $549, A STEAL!!!
Submitted 10/28/2003
at 11:44pm
by Anonymous
Features
:10
2002. If you can find a more versatile amp, you are living in a fantasy world. Four channels, 32 amp models, 16 cabinet models, and 16 digital effects. Plus reverb, drive, channel volume, master volume, bass, mid, treb, a noise gate, distortion, the possibilities ARE endless. GORGEOUS STEREO TONE, and enough volume to make your nuts rattle. Not to mention LOADS of other features on the back of the amp. You can program this thing to do anything. ANYTHING.
Sound Quality
:10
There is no way to tell you of all the hundreds of different sounds and tones this amp has. Sweet tone machine worthy of every musician. If you do not own one, RUN to the nearest dealer and buy one. If you can no longer find an XLII, get the XLIII.
Reliability
:10
HIGHLY RELIABLE
Customer Support
:10
These people will do anything to please you.
Overall Rating
:10
30 years. Epiphone, Fender, Dunlop, Austin, Oscar Schmidt. Line 6.
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: US $1000
Submitted 07/22/2003
at 02:49am
by Jared
Email: Jrad777<at>aol dot com
Features
:7
Line 6 flextone II XL...if you've already read the reviews below, you know what this amp's got. I ranked the features at 7 because even though there are a lot of good fx on this beast, you can only combine the modulation fx with delay. having a seperate reverb control was genius, however, for some amps, the reverb is lush, for others it's too messy underneath, and some it's not enough. If you could preset the different types of reverb without all the midi equipment and combine different fx, then I'd definitely give this a 9. (there's ALWAYS room for improvement.)
I play in a lot of different situations. I play in my church's praise and worship team, also with an improvisational group that practices through headphones, and jam at a local bar with friends every so often. This amp, to be honest, sounded like I was in a cardboard box the first time I turned it up. But the secret is ...(drumroll) ... breaking the speakers in. You really have to crank it up and just wail on it for a couple of weeks to loosen up the speakers so they actually sound good. And when I say crank, I mean so loud that you forget that you're already wearing earplugs.
Sound Quality
:10
I've had this amp for about a year and a half. This is the "new and improved for 2002" model.
I play with an (now don't laugh) old squier strat. It's older than me. But before you judge, I did some research on this particular model'sd serial number, and it turns out that back when this guitar was made, 1976, fender made these parts in the USA and shipped them over to Korea to be assembled in the squier factory. In order to save on costs i guess. But I have a hot rails in the bridge, and a fender blue lace in the neck. the middle p/u is disabled as i can get enough tones out of the 3 settings already. I have to admit, that this amp is no marshall/boogie stack. Because it does not have 4x12 celestion vintage 30's, a closed back, and 100 watts of hot tube power. nor do any of the "clean" amps sound the least bit useable. However, I have found that with the VOLUME KNOB (the little round thingy on your guitar that you never touch, not the tone knob the other one) you can open up magical tone doors on this amp like you would not believe. Now I use, mainly, 4 amps. Jazz clean through 4th 2x12 cab, small tweed through 1st 4x12 cab, brit high gain through 1st 4x12 cab, and #2 rectified through 1st 4x12 cab. My "any application" setting is the tweed. I have the gain maxed out, and get a nice fat and very smooth distortion (maybe too smooth sometimes) but the magic here is when you roll the volume back. It cleans up and you get a non-sterile sounding fender amp with a little bit of glass. the jazz clean is for all of the church stuff. I have the gain maxed out on that model as well, but it's more of a midrangy grainy overdrive. It'll start to breakup real nice if you start pounding your guitar. and start to pick softer and "viola" the sound starts to soften up. And the Rectifier may not be as tight as you'd like it to be, but set it just right, crank it in a big room (like a church sanctuary), and start wailing "master of puppets".
Reliability
:8
So far it hasn't caused any problems for me, however ever since i've had it, anything plugged into the headphone jack, or xlr outputs has a major buzz.
Customer Support
:10
they're website is really helpful. and you can even post your question and they'll answer it within 2 days if you have any question. I asked them a question about 'mod'ing my amp in a way that could have damaged it, but they answered my question regarding the mod, and they were right. They know their product.
Overall Rating
:10
I think it was a great amp for 750, 1000 w/ the pedal. it has a lot of great sounds and tones. It does an ok job modeling, but where it excels is in the "make your OWN sound" category. BTW, I am 20 years old. been playing guitar for 7+ years and have been playing electric guitar for 4 years. I'd say that I know enough about tones and distortin and fx to know what I need and how to get it. DON'T BUY THIS FOR 32 DIFFERENT AMP MODELS, YOU'LL BE DISAPPOINTED. BUT BUY THIS FOR THE ADVENTURE OF FINDING YOUR OWN TONES.
PS You CANNOT use this amp with a distortion pedal in front. trust me. try it in the store if you don't believe me.
Product: Line 6 Flextone II XL Price Paid: #669 (#)
Submitted 06/08/2003
at 03:43pm
by J.D
Email: try_n_chin_me_now at hotmail<dot>com
Features
:10
you've probably read all the features on the others reviews so am not going to go into them, you just need to know that its got alot.
Sound Quality
:3
here's where my mind starts to boggle. now, like most people i got caught up in the hype of "Oh, line 6, every amp i need crammed into 1" now thats what it says it is, but it int. the sound just sounds too fake to me, am not a tube nut before people start to blame me for bumming mesa/boogie, ive never even played one, but i have played a soldano SLO-100, n the line 6 sounds nothing like it. it feels too restricted, u get a rather nasty whump noise if u hav the bass to high. u can only get a slighty descent tone out of it if u hav it below 3, the effects r good tho. the clean sounds arn't as clean as they say they are. the distortions and high gain setting nearly sound all the same, just different settings on the EQ, i cant feel the power from it, b4 i got this i played a marshall AVT150H on a 4X12 and honest to god, i cud tear the room down with the tight bass response n high gain u can set it on, i hav since reverted back to the marshall, for the money i payed for it i cant find another amp better than it. as for the line 6, it jus sounds sterile and weak against the marshall even tho the RRP is more. my advice, if u can afford all tube then get all tube, if u cant then at least get summat with a good tube pre-amp. i dont know who line 6 are trying to kid, maybe they do sound good for recording, but live playing, they've got nothing on marshall or soldano. it seem apparent to me that people who rate highly on this catergory hav never played through a descent amp. am sorry but that is just the way it is.
Reliability
:5
it hasn't broken down but that whumping noise is annoying.
Customer Support
:4
never dealt with them, u get stung on the warrenty tho, u hav to fill summat in within 30 days else its not their problem ne mor.
Overall Rating
:4
the guitars i put through it were a gibson les paul studio and an american fender strat, i just used to get continuous feedback on the "Insane" setting with my les paul n on the other setting it was rather grainy, and it took away the classic fender twang of my strat. i put a parker p-38 through it once n when the battery started running down i cud pick up radio signals, not perfectly clear like but it was freaky. if it was stolen i'd probably use the insurance money to get me a second hand gibson SG or mayb upgrade my AVT150 to a DSL-100, coz marshalls r prity cool, n so r peaveys by the way, just thought i'd add that coz it says "anything else you'd like to share" n i thought it was a valid point. WOOOOOoooooo